Breaking Free: How Mid-Career Men Can Escape Corporate Burnout and Build Their Own Business with Anna Urnova

[00:00:03] Welcome to the Business Chop Podcast, where our guests speak on meeting the challenges of entrepreneurship, as well as offer tips and advice on business, marketing, technology, and more. Whether you are a newbie or seasoned professional, this episode is for you. I am your host, Audrey Wiggins.

[00:00:24] Let's chop it up.

[00:00:29] Hello, Chop Squad. It's great to be with you as usual on one of these sunny or snowy or windy days or sandy, depending on where you are in the world. And today we're going to chop with Anna Urnova. She is a career coach helping professional mid-career men. So go grab all the men in your life and let's gather around the microphone.

[00:00:47] To stop being stuck, undervalued, and burning out in soul-sucking jobs and successfully pivot to thrive without starting over or going back to school and even if they tried many times before and failed. Now on the other side of this message, you're going to come back and learn a little bit more about Anna and get into some questions.

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[00:01:39] We're back now with Anna. And Anna, before we started here, I know there's a couple of fun things or some accomplishments you want to share with us before we get started. What are those things?

[00:01:51] Well, thank you, Audrey. First of all, thanks for having me on your show. I'm really looking forward to the chat. Not every day you get to talk to Tech Diva, right? So I'm really looking forward to it.

[00:02:02] The fun fact. Well, actually, right now I have to say one of the fun facts is that I work with men being a woman and somehow many people find it fun. They keep asking me, so why is it? Why is it? They find it kind of triggers curiosity.

[00:02:17] Yeah, and I have to say it is fun. And that's how it happened. I did not start. I just started as a career coach overall.

[00:02:26] And after also pivoting myself from 20 years of corporate career and became a coach, having all sorts of clients.

[00:02:34] And then at some moment I had to specialize to scale, you know, my practice and which I'm sure your entrepreneur listeners would know what I mean.

[00:02:46] And then I had some strategic analysis done and turned out that my sweet spot, you know, the best the clients I most enjoy working with and who seem to be most value the outcomes and get most outcome of our work.

[00:03:00] Where that sweet spot of mid-career corporate men, right?

[00:03:04] So men between 35, 55 and corporate who want to change, either change industries or geographies or maybe become entrepreneurs and live the nine to five altogether or having an exciting side project like a podcast or something like that.

[00:03:20] And basically then for over a decade now already I'm developing this niche and I'm working with mid-career men helping them uncap their potential and have a spectacular second act.

[00:03:33] Awesome. And one thing I didn't mention earlier is that you're actually based in Berlin over in Germany?

[00:03:40] Absolutely, yes. But I work internationally. My clients are all over the world, including the U.S., Europe, U.K., Middle East and even Singapore.

[00:03:48] Wow, that's awesome. That's one thing about technology today that we can touch literally the globe.

[00:03:56] And so I really appreciate you being here and to share your expertise and, you know, what you do of helping, you know, men across the globe itself.

[00:04:04] All right. So let's let's get started and get into some questions so we can learn about just, you know, how we can, you know, can get to that one place or the other.

[00:04:14] So right out the gate, you know, what are the key signs that that indicate that someone is stuck in a soul sucking job?

[00:04:21] And how can they identify it if it's time to pivot out?

[00:04:25] Well, I would say most people know when they're stuck and how it shows in my clients is, and by the way, I know there are a lot of women listening.

[00:04:33] And what I find that really a lot of women see their men, right, their brothers, their cousins, their husbands, right, stuck.

[00:04:40] And they really feel helpless to help.

[00:04:42] They're trying to be supportive.

[00:04:44] But unless a man makes that makes a decision to change, really, no one else can help.

[00:04:50] I just want to say that I really find that when we unlock men, the whole ecosystem around them gets better, starting from family, community and all that.

[00:04:58] So the first time usually is that they basically the fire is not there anymore.

[00:05:04] They find themselves really out of vitality and the usual level of energy.

[00:05:10] They're not looking forward to their days.

[00:05:12] They are kind of dreading Mondays.

[00:05:15] That's the Monday dread, you know.

[00:05:17] And it doesn't start on Sunday night, Audrey.

[00:05:20] It's first it starts on Sunday night, but then it's already Sunday morning.

[00:05:24] But then before they know it, Saturday already is poisoned by thinking about work and what it's going to be to be back to work.

[00:05:29] So they actually end up missing out the whole family and fun time, dreading the work as well, right?

[00:05:36] So dreading of work, I would say, is the first sign that shows something needs to change.

[00:05:42] Because in the generation of other fathers and grandfathers and men before that, honestly, no one paid attention.

[00:05:48] They just soldiered through.

[00:05:49] But right now, men have so many more options, but a lot of them still feel they have to soldier through.

[00:05:56] And my message is the signs are common.

[00:05:59] Yeah, if you're over 35 and you're dreading your work, even after you maybe liked it for a while, right?

[00:06:05] You're dreading your work, you're not enjoying it, and you feel that your motivation, your fire, your energy is not there.

[00:06:12] Then it's probably time for change.

[00:06:15] It's not time for soldiering through, hiding the symptoms and trying to do it for the next 20 years.

[00:06:20] Definitely not.

[00:06:22] Right, exactly.

[00:06:23] So for some men that are experiencing this burnout, what are the first steps that you would recommend to regain clarity and motivation for their career so they can make that pivot?

[00:06:34] Well, first of all, they need to really get out of denial and accept that they're experiencing something that could be qualified as a crisis, right?

[00:06:44] And while a lot of men fear that, I would say the second step, first acknowledging, second step would actually identify it as an opportunity rather than a threat and something like something bad, like a disease that they have to, I don't know, somehow hide or deal with or whatever, right?

[00:07:02] So basically see an opportunity.

[00:07:05] So first acknowledge, second, see an opportunity.

[00:07:07] Trust that actually this door contains an upgrade.

[00:07:11] So the fact that you're not happy where you are means you'd want more.

[00:07:14] And guess what?

[00:07:15] There is a lot more available to you.

[00:07:17] And next 20, 25 years could be a spectacular second act that would surprise you, your wife, your kids, everyone around you, right?

[00:07:26] Or it could be a drag and a torture, right?

[00:07:28] So your choice.

[00:07:29] So second thing would be making this inner choice.

[00:07:33] And then the third step, I would say asking for help.

[00:07:35] Because what I found, I personally also had a quite severe midlife crisis, so to say, even though I'm a woman, but I had a very kind of masculine career in corporate.

[00:07:46] And I realized that the only step that kept blocking me for a very long time is my reluctance to seek help.

[00:07:55] I somehow believe, and as many of my clients do, that you have to figure it out by yourself entirely, the whole thing, before you even start.

[00:08:04] Allowing in help of an expert is the third step.

[00:08:07] And to be honest, Audrey, with these three first steps we discussed, it's already getting you on the right path.

[00:08:12] How do you help us to, you know, overcome the fear of making that career change?

[00:08:18] And I know we mentioned before in the intro, without having to go to school or maybe they want to get a new skill or something, but without having to actually return to school to do something.

[00:08:30] Yeah.

[00:08:30] Well, there is a big assumption out there.

[00:08:32] So basically, if you want career change, you have to go back to school.

[00:08:34] You have to start exactly how you started your first career, right?

[00:08:38] And that's just not true.

[00:08:39] Because what I find with like 100% of my clients, that when they actually feel they need new skills or they're lacking something, they're completely undervaluing the actual value or skill sets that they already have.

[00:08:53] By the age of 35, 40, 45, you know, 50, that's the sort of ages of my clients.

[00:09:01] They have a ton.

[00:09:03] They've acquired so many experiences.

[00:09:05] They already have education or two or three, depending on how they are learning, right?

[00:09:10] They all have certificates.

[00:09:12] They've attended training courses.

[00:09:14] They've had failures.

[00:09:16] They had wins.

[00:09:17] Yeah.

[00:09:17] They did sports.

[00:09:18] They had personal projects like kids or getting married or getting a divorce, unfortunately, or other things, right?

[00:09:25] So men come with a lot of, as we all, in my midlife, we come with a lot of luggage, baggage experience.

[00:09:32] And the temptation is then to say, okay, now it's all zero.

[00:09:36] I'll start from scratch.

[00:09:37] And that's what they all fear.

[00:09:39] And I'm just here to say that's not true.

[00:09:41] That's not what you need to do.

[00:09:43] What we do, actually, with my clients, I call it claim your gifts.

[00:09:47] We open all those suitcases and attics and cellars and everywhere where you stock all the stuff that you acquired.

[00:09:55] And we look at it item by item.

[00:09:57] And we're basically finding the value in it.

[00:10:00] And a lot of things people don't even understand or had the time to register that they acquired as a skill set become the biggest assets.

[00:10:08] That's always they all have undervalued assets, right?

[00:10:12] Which I call, which could be a skill set, which could be a certain way to pivot after a failure, which could be a gift, actually, that never was valued by others.

[00:10:22] It could be something they didn't even know how to bring into work.

[00:10:25] A lot of them have untapped creativity.

[00:10:28] They're widely creative.

[00:10:29] But they kind of left it all outside the corporate identity and all that, right?

[00:10:36] So we claim those.

[00:10:38] We put value.

[00:10:39] And suddenly, the same guy who was just about to go to school because he thought he had to start from scratch realizes he has 30 to 50 assets, as I call them, or gifts.

[00:10:49] Or I also call them golden reserve because I call them golden nuggets, right?

[00:10:53] That they can capitalize on right away without doing anything else, without acquiring new skills.

[00:11:00] That's interesting because we do have a lot right here in our hands.

[00:11:04] And we just don't realize it because we're so close to it.

[00:11:07] And we're just doing, you know, everyday tasks or activities and just going through our jobs, not realizing, like you said, that these are real skills.

[00:11:17] You know, these can translate into real skills.

[00:11:20] You know, whatever they made, label it in a textbook or, you know, in a classroom.

[00:11:25] So I thought that was a very important point that you made there.

[00:11:29] What are those strategies then that you use with clients to position themselves as value professionals on the same vein of what you're just talking about in a new field, even if they faced that rejection before?

[00:11:42] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:11:43] Well, first of all, they need to really define what I call purpose.

[00:11:47] But basically, it means like the longer term goal and that would at the same time create meaning for what they do.

[00:11:53] Right.

[00:11:53] Because a lot of guys, when they hit midlife, mid-career kind of crisis, derailment, maybe they got fired, maybe made redundant, maybe just got stuck.

[00:12:01] Maybe there's no promotions.

[00:12:02] Maybe there's a glass ceiling.

[00:12:03] There's a whole range of things that could go wrong.

[00:12:06] Let's say mid-career, midlife to signal crisis.

[00:12:09] A lot of them don't look beyond next paycheck and next job.

[00:12:13] They just kind of get very internal vision.

[00:12:16] It's like, what's my next job?

[00:12:17] Right.

[00:12:17] And then what happens usually they could get their next job, but then it doesn't make them happy again, even though it pays.

[00:12:23] Right.

[00:12:24] So they usually something doesn't work again.

[00:12:26] Again, there is no promotion.

[00:12:27] And they kind of get into the repeat loop of a stuck cycle, so to say.

[00:12:32] Right.

[00:12:33] Which is, of course, is not good for anyone.

[00:12:35] And it could potentially cause burnout.

[00:12:38] And it does.

[00:12:38] If you stop and say, hey, what if, what if right now I have this time because I've fulfilled a certain mission that I had until now.

[00:12:47] Right.

[00:12:47] Because there's not just one mission on life.

[00:12:49] There's several.

[00:12:50] So I fulfilled mission of act two, fact one.

[00:12:53] Sorry.

[00:12:53] So to say.

[00:12:54] And now I have to unlock my new mission, my new purpose.

[00:12:57] What are my 20 next years going to be about?

[00:13:00] Right.

[00:13:00] What kind of life I want to live?

[00:13:02] This kind of takes a man to step back from his day to day, you know, life in a rut, so to say, and take a longer term perspective.

[00:13:11] But I find it's very, very important.

[00:13:13] It's like, you know, having the GPS about where you're going, because unless you have that, you're just like, you know, wandering in the woods and you keep ending in the same place.

[00:13:22] Right.

[00:13:23] So that's what we do.

[00:13:24] We define this longer term goal.

[00:13:26] I call it purpose because that's what it is, basically.

[00:13:29] And the key, the way I do it, the key sign that we found the right one for this particular man, wherever he is on that purpose, on doing things that are aligned to that objective, he has a rush of energy.

[00:13:45] He is energized.

[00:13:46] He is energized.

[00:13:46] Or even when he's tired, like tired after work.

[00:13:48] But when this hits, when there's a call about that, when there's a program on TV about that, when he finds a book about that, when he gets to do his speech about that, suddenly he jumps in as if he never was tired.

[00:14:00] And every single man has something like that.

[00:14:03] And they all describe the stories about like, yeah, that I hate.

[00:14:07] I am tired.

[00:14:07] But this I can do like every moment of the day.

[00:14:10] I'm sure we all know how it feels, right?

[00:14:13] When you hit something that just naturally fuels your tanks and just makes you curious, makes you want to go and do stuff.

[00:14:22] And I guarantee every single man has that.

[00:14:25] And when we find this true purpose, this true long-term GPS, the goal, it's always aligned to this natural energy.

[00:14:33] It becomes a natural energy source.

[00:14:35] Of course, the man still needs weekends and rests, and we all do.

[00:14:38] But imagine if your work is fueling your tanks, if it's actually by doing it, you get more energized, more hungry for more, right?

[00:14:48] Rather than the other way around.

[00:14:50] That's exactly what we're trying to do by creating, finding this purpose, this longer-term view that will actually be aligned to the energy, right?

[00:15:00] To the energy and natural flow of energy of this particular man.

[00:15:04] So what makes your approach different or effective for these mid-career men?

[00:15:09] I find that this focus on energy is very important.

[00:15:12] Because what I find with a lot of men is that unlike women, actually, this is really different from women.

[00:15:18] Women are more natural feeling the energies and all that.

[00:15:21] A lot of men, when they think about what they want to do next, they only think about it.

[00:15:24] They only use their head.

[00:15:25] And they try to calculate.

[00:15:27] Will it pay?

[00:15:29] Second guess if they're going to be successful.

[00:15:31] Second guess if it will sell.

[00:15:32] Second guess if it will, I don't know, be successful.

[00:15:35] Provide the status.

[00:15:37] So they're all into thinking.

[00:15:39] Even when they say, well, I want to, for instance, do something for sustainability.

[00:15:43] Do something good for the world.

[00:15:45] A lot of them are still thinking about it.

[00:15:47] Oh, someone else is doing it.

[00:15:48] So maybe it works for them.

[00:15:50] So I'll do.

[00:15:51] Even when they think about becoming a coach or mentor or someone.

[00:15:55] A lot of them, I don't say all, but a lot of them only use their head to calculate.

[00:15:59] So, and the problem with that is that they don't really know until they start if that

[00:16:05] would energize them.

[00:16:06] If that would even be interesting to them.

[00:16:08] And a lot of them, when they proceed like that with their changes, they get stuck.

[00:16:12] Because guess what?

[00:16:13] After this kind of first shiny object syndrome went off, they just feel bored again.

[00:16:19] And they feel like, oh, it's just the same brag.

[00:16:20] I'm dreading doing that now.

[00:16:24] Right?

[00:16:26] And what I found that it's really about overdoing your mental process and thinking it all should

[00:16:32] be thought through and figured out in your head that gets me stuck.

[00:16:36] And when we, and guess what?

[00:16:38] You cannot be energized in your head.

[00:16:40] That's not where the energy is, right?

[00:16:42] In fact, guys all describe symptoms like mental fog, mental fatigue, overwhelm, which

[00:16:48] is all kind of symptoms that the head is overdone, overdoing it.

[00:16:52] Whereas the rest of their body, which is also, this is where we feel energy, right?

[00:16:57] They are not utilizing.

[00:16:58] It's like redundant.

[00:17:00] It has nothing to do with it.

[00:17:02] Well, my method, I'm actually integrated two through different exercises and proven to

[00:17:07] work by the way.

[00:17:09] And it's not stuff.

[00:17:11] It's, it's, it's also worked in business schools.

[00:17:13] And I, and I did a lot of research and I read a lot of research.

[00:17:16] So it works.

[00:17:17] It combines both the logical process and the intuitive and the, so the energy process.

[00:17:21] So when you find something you want, I teach them how to see symptoms that it's exactly

[00:17:26] what will energize you.

[00:17:28] So you will not make mistakes.

[00:17:30] You don't, because that's what the men don't want to do.

[00:17:33] No one does, wants to do it at mid-career, risk everything and then fail, have a mistake

[00:17:38] and then, you know, continue trial and error forever.

[00:17:41] No, you, you, of course we will fail and make mistakes, but at least we want to know we're

[00:17:45] on the right path, right?

[00:17:46] So combination of strategy, methods and process to figure it out mentally.

[00:17:52] And at the same time also have, take energy flow into account.

[00:17:56] Yeah.

[00:17:56] And what energize you naturally that creates really a winning combination.

[00:18:02] Yes, definitely.

[00:18:03] But can you share, Ana, a, give us a success story of a client who's transitioned from being

[00:18:10] undervalued in her job to thriving in their new career?

[00:18:13] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:18:14] All the time have that.

[00:18:16] Well, for instance, there was a guy who shared with me, he, he, he got on my free call.

[00:18:23] He watched my masterclass, got on my free coaching call.

[00:18:27] And he shared with me that he really, really didn't enjoy doing his corporate job.

[00:18:31] He was not proud of the industry.

[00:18:33] In fact, he even felt shame of the industry he's working with, working in.

[00:18:37] I don't want to go into exact industry, but he, because of his faith, he didn't, he, he

[00:18:44] felt he was not kind of aligned value wise to the industry.

[00:18:49] Right.

[00:18:50] And he really had this dream to be entrepreneur, but he had already three or four failed attempts.

[00:18:56] So he was basically, he told me, this is the call where I'm going to decide whether I'm

[00:19:02] going to do it again or maybe stop because money lost, energy lost.

[00:19:06] And at the end of the day, he felt I keep failing.

[00:19:09] We actually met through alumni group of a very good business school.

[00:19:13] He went for a course, hoping they would help him, but it didn't.

[00:19:17] He had great fun, but at the end, he still did not become an entrepreneur, unfortunately.

[00:19:22] Right.

[00:19:23] So, and within that call, I just could tell that it's so, it was so important for this

[00:19:29] guy.

[00:19:29] So I asked him if he's prepared to be committed that I absolutely will.

[00:19:33] I will use my system.

[00:19:34] I think it will work as long as you committed to become an entrepreneur.

[00:19:37] He said a hundred percent.

[00:19:38] Yeah.

[00:19:38] Well, actually he took time to think and then he called me and said, a hundred percent.

[00:19:43] I'm, I'm, I'm just afraid to trust something after I already failed several times.

[00:19:48] I tried it all, but I will, I will give it a one last chance and I will be committed.

[00:19:53] So guess what?

[00:19:54] Um, we were working together and meet midway through, through, um, the program that I was

[00:20:00] working with him, uh, in, he had a major, major insight.

[00:20:04] I just remember it almost happened half, uh, through our session and he was like, oh my

[00:20:09] God, I just had a major insight.

[00:20:11] And he came back then sharing next day, like that's what he realized that he was going wrong

[00:20:16] about it.

[00:20:17] And he figured out how he can go about being entrepreneur in a new way in his, in his, uh,

[00:20:22] to cut the long story short and in his story, it was actually to find the business that already

[00:20:27] worked and basically acquiring it.

[00:20:30] That's awesome.

[00:20:31] Yes.

[00:20:32] And actually within weeks, he already found several options.

[00:20:36] He put his offer.

[00:20:37] And by the time he finished working with me, his offer was accepted.

[00:20:41] He still was very scared that he was doing the wrong thing, dah, dah, dah.

[00:20:44] But okay.

[00:20:45] We said, we, we agreed the way forward.

[00:20:47] He continued.

[00:20:48] So three months after he finished working with me, he actually sent me another, another of

[00:20:55] my clients who we had a group together where we shared successes.

[00:20:57] He sent us the link to his website.

[00:21:02] His new venture was doing great.

[00:21:04] And then I had an interview with him where he shared that he, his venture will make a

[00:21:08] one million turnover by the end of the year.

[00:21:11] And this is still like a side hustle in a way, right?

[00:21:14] Because he still haven't even left his corporate job fully.

[00:21:18] He, he was taking steps out of it, but he still was there.

[00:21:23] So he shared one million in sales turnover already by the end of the year and hoping and not hoping,

[00:21:32] planning to double it, you know, within, within the next time period.

[00:21:36] So that was amazing.

[00:21:38] And even in that interview, which is like months after he had his insight, I was talking to entrepreneur.

[00:21:45] That's the most amazing thing.

[00:21:47] He had this total identity shift, as I call it from suffering corporate guy.

[00:21:56] Entrepreneur, different language, different numbers, different, you know, different criteria for success, everything.

[00:22:04] So that was really amazing.

[00:22:07] I would say that was, that was an amazing transformation.

[00:22:11] I was part of that.

[00:22:12] I was witnessing and I was very proud to, to be of help to him.

[00:22:17] Yeah, that is amazing.

[00:22:18] That's an amazing success story right there.

[00:22:21] So how can, how can one get in touch with you, you know, to work with you, Ana?

[00:22:26] Well, it's easy.

[00:22:27] I have a website, AnaOrnova.com, easy to remember.

[00:22:30] And you can just, whoever is interested, man, or maybe women have their, their husbands or brothers or I don't know, uncles in, in, in, in mind.

[00:22:40] Just the link there.

[00:22:41] And if you go www.anornova.com slash free training, then there is a free masterclass, totally free, where I describe the symptoms of mid-career stuckness and crisis.

[00:22:54] Then I explain basically what maybe they're doing wrong.

[00:22:58] And then I take them through the five shifts, basically how to build the strategy.

[00:23:02] I share three case success stories of my clients, not this one, three different ones, but they actually help different types of men recognize themselves and apply the strategy.

[00:23:15] And if they go through all that and they still have questions, if they qualify, if they're a man in mid-career and they have 15 years of corporate track record,

[00:23:25] they can book a free call with me when I'll just look at their profile, at their case, and I will point them out in the right direction.

[00:23:31] Awesome. Yes. All right, CHOP Squad.

[00:23:34] Again, you know, go to Ana's website.

[00:23:36] It's A-N-N-A-U-R-N-O-V-A dot com.

[00:23:40] And so she can get you on the right track and so you can make that, that pivot.

[00:23:44] So Ana, as we come to a close, is there a nugget or two that you'd like to leave us with?

[00:23:50] Absolutely. I believe men, women, whoever we are,

[00:23:54] one important thing I noticed is that somehow a lot of people, when they've had a, you know, a successful first act,

[00:24:00] let's call it, I don't know, in our, until our early 30s or mid-30s, right?

[00:24:05] And then something's not working out or they get stuck or maybe derailed in their careers.

[00:24:11] Often people just keep doing what they were doing before, keep trying to do what made them successful.

[00:24:17] In that, they actually stole the development.

[00:24:20] And then when it's not working, then they start kind of soldiering through,

[00:24:24] hoping to make it until, I don't know, retirement or something like that.

[00:24:27] And I think in all that, they kind of skip step the whole second act.

[00:24:31] They go from act two of one to straight to kind of retirement and act three.

[00:24:36] And I believe in our generations and hopefully generations to come, act two could be spectacular, right?

[00:24:42] But you need to pivot.

[00:24:44] You just need to accept that no path will take you through the whole of your career,

[00:24:48] that there will be several trajectories.

[00:24:50] And when things are not going, you know, as you expect them to go,

[00:24:56] all it means you need to shift, change your trains in a way, right?

[00:24:59] So don't start, don't try to sit on a train that's not going anywhere and pretending it's going, right?

[00:25:05] You just miss out.

[00:25:06] Yeah, I like this metaphor.

[00:25:07] Like, just say, hey, I have a chance for a new train now.

[00:25:12] Okay, go to the new train.

[00:25:13] And don't expect that go for another 30 years because it may be 15, but then maybe another train.

[00:25:19] But every new train will be a new opportunity for fun.

[00:25:23] You will have a lot of tools available.

[00:25:27] You will need to learn maybe something, but you will also be able to utilize your old skills

[00:25:32] and you will meet new people.

[00:25:33] And the more you kind of seeing it as part of our new normal,

[00:25:38] the more successful you're going to be at pivoting.

[00:25:40] And pivoting, in fact, is one of the key competencies we all should develop

[00:25:46] and also teach others to develop.

[00:25:49] Awesome.

[00:25:50] Thanks again, Anna.

[00:25:51] Really appreciate you bringing down the chop today.

[00:25:53] And folks, make sure that you go to our website again, annaarnova.com,

[00:25:59] and, you know, really plug into what she's talking about so you can get to the next level.

[00:26:03] And not just necessarily next level, but purpose aligned is to use your words, Anna.

[00:26:09] Absolutely.

[00:26:10] Which always takes you to another level.

[00:26:12] It usually increases your fund, your impact, and your income.

[00:26:16] So, yeah, it's a win-win.

[00:26:19] Absolutely.

[00:26:19] Okay.

[00:26:20] So, you guys, take care, and we'll see you next time.

[00:26:22] Thank you, Audrey.

[00:26:23] Thank you for listening to The Business Shop.

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